Citroen C1, Peugeot 107, 108 & Toyota Aygo Owners Club. (Discount code for CityBugStore: C1OC)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:42 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:56 pm
Posts: 131
Location: Hexham
Drives: 2011 107
Sorry to disappoint folks but the Piper manifold is a £180 paperweight.

The flange will not seal on account of the bulging welds and the fact it's warped.
Having it skimmed it will actually void the warranty too.

The gasket tells the story:


Image


That's not all though.

I discovered the manifold will not fit the downpipe either as a result of an obvious oversight with the placement of the lambda boss - The mounting hardware fouls the boss and is therefore impossible to tighten properly to achieve the necessary spring tension for the compensator to seal.
The PCD of the collector flange holes also do not quite match the standard item which puts undue strain on the mounting hardware and the spigot isn't square to the flange nor is it long enough to properly receive the standard gasket ring, which kind of rattles around in the cup.

Even if that lambda boss wasn't there and the compensator could be tightened up, there's not enough space between the two flanges for that ball joint to articulate when the engine rocks; which is the whole point of a compensator.


Image

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As it is, the manifold will not seal at the head. It will not securely attach or seal at the collector either, nor does it have the 2" OD collector output that was advertised.

I'm in the process of a back and forth with Piper, Larkspeed acting as the intermediary.

I've requested that I return the manifold to Piper for correction; to have the head flange skimmed and the misaligned collector flange/spigot cut off and replaced with a 2" ID flange like this:


Image



Larkspeed agreed this was a reasonable course of action. They're also playing the "well we've sold loads of these and never had any problems but totally agree and understand where you're coming from" in a bid to protect their interests.
What's funny is another colleage actually informed me a few weeks ago that it's not popular at all and they've only sold 2, maybe 3.

Piper have misinterpreted the returns request as me wanting the manifold remanufactured with 2" primaries; declining on the basis that the manifolds are built on jigs so that's not possible but offering a full refund instead.

I've explained again that I just want the flange replaced.


Hopefully this gets resolved quickly before it turns into a terrible joke.

:|

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Last edited by Bunkey on Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:01 pm 
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Location: SE Staffordshire
Drives: 2011 C1 + VW Touareg
If the Lambda boss / compensator bolt were the only issue, you could overcome it by using a slightly shorter bolt.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:38 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:56 pm
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Location: Hexham
Drives: 2011 107
I'm gonna keep the details to myself now until a solution can be found; I just had to vent.

Im sure once we're all on the same page we can come to an amicable agreement & me posting the trials and tribulations in the public domain at the same time might not be the most respectful thing to do.

I shall resume with the usual positive content as soon as possible :thumbs:



Black grouse, you'd have to modify the original hardware because it's not a simple bolt, it's more like a threaded standoff which passes through one flange and tightens against the other. I can't explain it very well just now. Your premise is sound though.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:42 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:02 pm
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Drives: PEUGEOT 107
Oh dear!, looks like it still in product development and you've just joined the team! Do they sell manifold and full system, if they selling it to fit standard exhaust system then there's no excuse or maybe adapted a race application for road use, who knows. Hope you get it sorted anyways.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:57 am 
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Location: Hexham
Drives: 2011 107
It's intended to fit the standard exhaust as a basic stand in for the original manifold. They do offer a full 2" system but it uses the same manifold, or even the oe manifold, with that same 1 3/8" spigot which is crazy. It's not really a performance part and more of a marketing exercise. A 2" system is ridiculously too big for the engine output too but at least if the manifold outputs 2" then I can step down to a suitable 1.5" pipe for the rest of the system.


As you can probably tell I'm quite pissed off with it now.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:52 pm 
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Yep, and Piper are hardly newbies, my Mondeo had standard manifolds, a 3rd party/homemade decat pipe and cat back full system (allegedly mongoose) and that lot had differing flanges etc, but it all mated up perfect, well good enough for a numpty like me to fit it, so it not beyond the wit of man!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:01 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:56 pm
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Location: Hexham
Drives: 2011 107
Well after a bit of reflection I'm ready to draw the curtain on this scene.


I think there are two different camps when it comes to aftermarket exhausts..
When the majority of people think of the exhaust they probably want something that looks good and sounds sporty; I think Piper, Mongoose, Sportex, all these well-known names cater to that side of the market.
I've no doubt the Piper sounds great with it's oversized tubing. If they didn't use oversized tubing it wouldn't be as appealing in this sense and if they didn't have that tiny standard-sized spigot there in front of the oversized tubing to keep the back pressure, the engine just wouldn't make any power at all - even if that means it doesnt flow any better than standard.
Your stainless Mongoose system on the back of the standard manifold won't have shown gains for exactly the same reason, Steve.

Then there's the other side of the garage where I park:
To me the exhaust is a means of extracting gases from the combustion chamber as efficiently as possible and that is my criteria of quality and performance.
I don't care for huge pipes and boomy noises.

It just is what it is.

Ultimately, I think I'm going to have to draw a line under this one, take it on the chin and work with what I've got if I want to progress with this build.
Piper's only offer is a full refund - they're not prepared to correct their mistakes - so given my budget it looks like it's this manifold or nothing.
There's no excuse for the manifold not fitting properly but hey-ho you've seen it, I've seen it; we know that now and I'll be sure to shop elsewhere in future.


Let's move on a take a look at the plan going forward...

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Last edited by Bunkey on Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:28 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:56 pm
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Location: Hexham
Drives: 2011 107
So before any more boxes show up..

The engine in the car - the one I half rebuilt last winter - is on it's way out.
Fortunately, it's the half I didn't rebuild that seems to be having issues 8-)
I'm putting together a new engine before the current one gives up completely.


Image
Ah, that's where all my oil is!


I sourced the second engine from a scrapyard in Hartlepool after the yard's owner posted an advertisement on the C1OC facebook page a few months ago.
I wouldn't recommend the place.

My plan for the engine is to tear it down, bring everything up to spec and port the cylinder head just as I did the last one - I've since picked up a flex extension for the dremel so hopefully we can improve this time around.


Image


I went for a full Elring gasket set based on how much better their stem seals were over the FAI set.
It includes the crankshaft seal for both ends and everything else that I almost forgot last time. £86 ebay: doctor_car_parts.

Clutch is an LUK and hopefully performs better than the Exedy fitted to the current engine.

The valves in the replacement engine should be ok so there's no need to mess about reshimming the tappets and stuff in this new head.
I will be carrying the valve spring shims over to increase seat pressures though, it seems to be working pretty well just now pending an inspection of the tappets & bores in the current cylinder head.

I'll be using the ported intake system from the current engine.
As for the cam timing - I'm going back to the standard timing as I said I might, because...

To pair the engine I have a 2007 Yaris 1KR gearbox :thumbs:


Image


I got this from an auto salvage place near Liverpool - Knowsley Car Dismantlers - This guy was exceptionally good; all the recovered parts were neatly tagged & stacked on shelving units in a big dry warehouse. Everything was clean. They'd even coated the gearbox's splined shaft and release fork in copper grease before storing it.
As you know, the Yaris gearbox has a shorter final drive ratio than the bugs as well as the linear gear ratios of the early boxes.
It also has a hydraulic clutch release lever which will have to be converted. We'll look at these things later as well as how the gearing relates to the cam timing I was using.

I've splashed out on some RedLine MT90 racing gear oil at £21 per litre for this thing :shock:
low friction = less power lost in the transmission.


Whilst the car is without engine, I need to replace all the copper brake pipe on the chassis as I've had advisories the past 2 MOT and now the fluid level is dropping.

An impromptu visit to a 3rd scrappy saw me leave with a tidy set of spare brake calipers & discs, which may get used, as well as some solid oem front wishbones that I've fitted with Powerflex competition polybushes.


Image


I'd also like to make a strut brace for the rear turrets and seam weld the front subframe in lieu of that brace I destroyed years ago - both of these will be designated 'activities for procrastination' during the build.


As I don't want to be here til April this time, I've booked a weekend stay in the Trossachs for the beginning of December :lol:
Setting targets 8-)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:08 pm
Posts: 78
Drives: mx5, 107
Bunkey wrote:
Well after a bit of reflection I'm ready to draw the curtain on this scene.

Ultimately, I think I'm going to have to draw a line under this one, take it on the chin and work with what I've got if I want to progress with this build.
Piper's only offer is a full refund - they're not prepared to correct their mistakes - so given my budget it looks like it's this manifold or nothing.
There's no excuse for the manifold not fitting properly but hey-ho you've seen it, I've seen it; we know that now and I'll be sure to shop elsewhere in future.

Let's move on a take a look at the plan going forward...


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:05 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:02 pm
Posts: 937
Drives: PEUGEOT 107
Yep, onward and upward, good on you for giving it a go, I not really bothered with power mods on ours cos there not much out there, unless like you, you DIY, i'm not that skilled and the car is what it is, my mods on ours have gone in other directions. That's what I love about car modding, everyone does different things and some do/try stuff because you can.


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