Citroen C1, Peugeot 107, 108 & Toyota Aygo Owners Club. (Discount code for CityBugStore: C1OC). - New users not working currently, New users please use 'City Bug Club' Facebook instead

It is currently Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:47 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: The blame game.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:36 am
Posts: 8
Drives: Peugeot 107 2009
Little quiz for you here....whose fault is it?

A- The farmer for being on the wrong side of the road?
B - The 107 driver for obeying the rules of the road?

I don't know how to upload a video but I published it on youtube... if that works?

https://youtu.be/-FjdfSyN0LM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The blame game.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:48 am 
Offline
Full Member

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:48 pm
Posts: 12
Drives: 2006 Peugeot 107
Sorry, but

B - The 107 driver for not obeying the rules of the road

Highway Code
Rule 146
Adapt your driving to the appropriate type and condition of road you are on. In particular:

take the road and traffic conditions into account. Be prepared for unexpected or difficult situations, for example, the road being blocked beyond a blind bend. Be prepared to adjust your speed as a precaution


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The blame game.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:36 am
Posts: 8
Drives: Peugeot 107 2009
Interesting. "Be prepared to adjust your speed as a precaution."
The speed of the 107 was < 20mph. How slow would you expect to have to drive? That logic would dictate that we should all drive at a walking pace just in case an 'unexpected' stuation' arose. Then again, there would be be no accidents ( and no need for insurance) if it wasn't for 'unexpected situations'.

Of course, there are always mitigating circumstances. (Think of crash for cash situations where car in front stops for no reason causing the car behind to crash into them. Technically the car behinds fault, but if the brakes lights on the car in front were rigged to not work, then whose fault is it?)

The Highway Code, in general, is a guide and only some rules attach any meaning in law - such rules are identified by the use of the words ‘MUST/MUST NOT’. Rule 146, as you've quoted, also says "where there are junctions, be prepared for road users emerging". Your logic would say that if a car pulls out in front of you at the last minute, it would be your fault. Really?

Rule 160 says "keep to the left, unless road signs or markings indicate otherwise. The exceptions are when you want to overtake, turn right or pass parked vehicles or pedestrians in the road". It goes on to say "be aware of other road users".

The tractor driver was not 'aware' or excercising caution, yet he had a clear view of the road, the bend and beyond the bend (from his higher driving position). His farm is 100yds from the bend and he seemed to claim the lane as his own personal road. He had 10' of clear road on his n/s which he didn't feel inclined to use, leaving less than 12' of room for 9' wide tractor and a 5' wide car. Regardless of rule 146, he was on the wrong side of the road.

As he was travelling at speed towards the bend and the 107, it wasn't a stuation like a sheep had suddenly jumped in the road. Even if the 107 was driving at 10 mph, the closing speed would still have been around 40mph.

Thanks for you input though.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The blame game.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:02 pm
Posts: 728
Location: macduff
Drives: 107 sportium 2012
Knock for knock I would say, both equally to blame. Both going too fast for the distance you can see.

_________________
[color=#FF0000]Davie aka portsoypug

2012 107 sportium x2, black and white
1998 xantia 1.9td veg burner
1993 pug205 1.6 auto


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The blame game.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:36 am
Posts: 8
Drives: Peugeot 107 2009
Too fast? Like I said, the car was doing less than 20mph, the insurance company concur.

The fact that the tractor is way too far over from his side of the road isn't factored into your theory? He has some right of way to drive as he wants?

The tractor driver had a high up view and could easily see what was coming ( I know, I've tried it in a tractor myself), yet he failed to do anything until the last second.

The dashcam is a wide angle one which gives a distorted picture regarding proximity. The distance between them is much less than it appears, so the avoidance of a full head-on was down to the car driver alone.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The blame game.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:04 pm 
Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:25 pm
Posts: 235
Location: Aberdeen...
Drives: 107 Urban '09
There's a ruddy big bush on the corner, even in the cab of an 18 wheeler you'd struggle to see that much greater round that corner.

_________________
107 '09 Urban


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The blame game.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:53 pm 
Offline
Full Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:59 pm
Posts: 854
Location: Aberdeenshire
Drives: C1 Phase 3; 107 Ph 1
Yeah, I don't think either vehicle would have a good view around that corner.

I love the attitude in the video poster's description:

"Look at this asshole farmer driving his tractor on the wrong side of the road without a care in the world!"

What do I see? A narrow road with no centre markings and a large vehicle on it. The road is narrow enough to be considered a single track road (just like the road I live on) so there isn't really a "wrong side of the road" but the tractor is more to the left than the right - as it should be. It isn't practical for him to drive in the gutter the entire way but, approaching a blind bend, he should be as far left as he can be. He probably could have gotten a bit further across though, but not that much. A vehicle that size on a road like that has very little option other than to take up a lot of the road. Asshole farmer or just a farmer driving a large vehicle on a narrow road?

There are loads of roads similar to that near where I live so meeting vehicles like this is a regular occurrence for me. Basically, anyone on the road in the video and approaching that bend should be driving slowly, cautiously and be prepared to brake.

Neither vehicle looks to be travelling particularly fast. I can't say for certain how much the tractor slows, but he does seem to slow down at least a little before the collision actually happens. It's worth remembering that a big thing like that, with a trailer takes more slowing than a light bug. The 107 certainly slows down quite a lot. What I don't really get is why neither vehicle stops. It may be partly due to camera distortion but the 107 and probably the tractor both look to have reduced their speed to a point where heavy breaking could have been increased to emergency braking and stopped the vehicles close to each other but before they actually made contact. It actually looks to me as if the 107 is trying to squeeze through the gap.

In that situation, I would expect to have to approach the corner slowly, cautiously and be prepared to brake. I would hope that I would be travelling at a speed that allowed me to stop fully before making contact with the tractor and I would be prepared to put the car into reverse and give the tractor more room to continue because it would be much easier for me to do it than for him. Of course, it's very easy to drive like that from behind my keyboard and without actually seeing the road but I did have to do almost exactly that yesterday - me in my C1 and the other guy in a tractor hauling a trailer full of manure and in icy conditions at twilight. :P


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The blame game.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:32 pm 
Offline
Area Rep
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:31 pm
Posts: 4476
Location: Motherwell
Drives: Citroën C1
Its a blind bend...! both equally to blame, not that it is much of a situation that warrants such speculation

both should approach with caution, both should react in enough time,

In defence, The tractor needs to take the centre line as need the whole road to make the turn with a trailer

ah high driving position is irrelevant really, you cant see a thin around that bend as pigjosh says.

_________________
John - Mechanical Guru :ugeek:
Scottish Area Rep
Citroën C1 and Honda Civic Type-S GT


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The blame game.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:02 pm
Posts: 728
Location: macduff
Drives: 107 sportium 2012
Doesnt matter if the car was doing 20mph, 2 mph or 80mph, if it couldnt stop it was going too fast. I dont really see the road positioning of any of the vehicles as being wrong, there was not time for them to stop. Thats why I say it was one of these things, avoidable if one or the other or both were going slower on what is a blind bend on a single track road. And before you question my judgement I am an instructor in training to become an examiner in the Institute of Advanced Motorists.

_________________
[color=#FF0000]Davie aka portsoypug

2012 107 sportium x2, black and white
1998 xantia 1.9td veg burner
1993 pug205 1.6 auto


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The blame game.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:10 pm 
Offline
Full Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:59 pm
Posts: 854
Location: Aberdeenshire
Drives: C1 Phase 3; 107 Ph 1
daviemck2006 wrote:
Doesnt matter if the car was doing 20mph, 2 mph or 80mph, if it couldnt stop it was going too fast. I dont really see the road positioning of any of the vehicles as being wrong, there was not time for them to stop. Thats why I say it was one of these things, avoidable if one or the other or both were going slower on what is a blind bend on a single track road. And before you question my judgement I am an instructor in training to become an examiner in the Institute of Advanced Motorists.

Fully agreed. That's exactly how I see it.

timbob wrote:
Interesting. "Be prepared to adjust your speed as a precaution."
The speed of the 107 was < 20mph. How slow would you expect to have to drive? That logic would dictate that we should all drive at a walking pace just in case an 'unexpected' stuation' arose. Then again, there would be be no accidents ( and no need for insurance) if it wasn't for 'unexpected situations'.

No, you drive to the conditions and what you can see. If you can't see round a bend, you adjust your speed so that you can stop in the distance that you can see. If that means walking pace, then that's the speed that you should be going. If you're on a straight road, with clear sides and a good view ahead, then crack on at 60 or whatever the speed limit is. If there was a magical curtain drawn across a road that you could drive through but not see beyond - and anything could be on the other side, would you just hammer through at 60 or would you slow down just in case something was on the other side? Same thing with a bend that you can't see around. Usually, there isn't anything around a bend but, the thing is, there could be.

On a road like the one in the video there could easily be an escaped cow standing in the road around the bend (700kg of stationary beef on legs can really mess up your car), a boulder could have fallen off a wall or something, a farmer could be driving cattle or sheep across the road (and perhaps a tailback of stationary cars letting him do it could be just out of sight). Last summer, I went round a bend on a road that I have driven hundreds of times. I was probably going a little bit fast for what I could see but, fortunately, not so fast that I couldn't stop because as I went round the bend, a wooden cart pulled by a couple of ponies with a bunch of kids on it was moving at walking pace just around the corner, and a car was coming the other way so I couldn't pull out to pass. I had to brake heavily and there were no real consequences (other than me requiring a change of underwear) but if I'd been going a bit faster, it could have been a very serious accident. Like I said, I've driven the road hundreds of times but I have never seen that cart before or since.

And that's the point: most of the time, there won't be a problem but there could be. It's far better to go cautiously around the bend only to find that there was nothing there than go fast around it only to find that you should have been going slowly. The consequences of getting it wrong could be very serious indeed. If you can't see around the corner (or the road ahead for some other reason - fog, whatever), you don't know what is around the corner so you don't know if you can come out the other end. So, you drive at a speed where you can stop within the distance that you can see.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group